The Art of Adjusting® Podcast
Dive deep into the world of insurance claims with our podcast, newly rebranded as "The Art of Adjusting®"—a title echoing the revered book of the same name. This revamped podcast is not just a beacon for professionals navigating the adjuster landscape but also a wealth of insights for those curious about the intricacies of the industry.
We're thrilled to announce that Bill Auten, owner of Auten Claims Management, will now share the mic with a stellar co-host, Chantal Roberts. Chantal isn’t just the brilliant mind behind the book 'The Art of Adjusting®'; she's also the powerhouse owner of CMR Consulting. Together, this dynamic pair will decode the complexities of various claims, from property and auto to liability and workers’ compensation, providing unmatched expertise and invaluable insights for our listeners.
In our recent episodes, we've explored a range of riveting topics, offering a deep dive into the technicalities of claims, showcasing transformational journeys within the industry, and illuminating the art and science of policy decoding and investigation. Special guests, including industry veterans like Steve Frattare, have graced our platform to share their extensive knowledge and experience, shedding light on a multitude of areas within the claims adjusting world.
Subscribe to “The Art of Adjusting®” to keep abreast of the evolving landscape of insurance claims. Share our treasure trove of episodes with colleagues, friends, and anyone with an appetite for understanding the captivating, multifaceted world of claims adjusting.
For more insights, you might consider a career in liability adjusting or if you're searching for reliable adjusting services:
Visit: Auten Claims Management
To explore more about Chantal Roberts and her contributions to the industry, visit:
Visit: CMR Consulting
Promotions:
- Once Upon a Claim: Explore the magical world of claims adjusting through fairy tales. Get your copy now.
- The Art of Adjusting®: Master the art of claims adjusting with practical insights and expert advice. Purchase here.
The Art of Adjusting® Podcast
Episode #62: Resilience & Relationships: The Human Side of Adjusting with Heather Blevins
In this episode, we sit down with Heather Blevins, the renowned "Insurance Rebel," to explore the crucial role of resilience and relationships in claims adjusting. As professionals in a high-stakes, high-stress industry, adjusters face unique challenges that require more than technical expertise—they need strong connections and a support system to thrive.
With Valentine’s Day as a backdrop, this conversation highlights how fostering meaningful relationships—whether with colleagues, clients, or mentors—builds professional and personal resilience. Heather shares her insights on how adjusters can navigate industry pressures, handle emotional challenges, and find deeper fulfillment in their work.
We also tackle the often-overlooked topic of mental health and self-care in the claims profession. From the demands of catastrophe response to the everyday stress of handling complex cases, we discuss ways to maintain well-being, reduce burnout, and create a culture of support and transparency within the industry.
Looking ahead, the future of claims adjusting is evolving with AI advancements and a growing workforce gap. Heather shares her perspective on how the industry must adapt training programs, attract new talent, and balance technological efficiency with the human touch that remains at the heart of the profession.
Join us for this insightful conversation as we uncover strategies for staying resilient, strengthening industry relationships, and shaping the future of claims adjusting.
This audio has been edited and engineered by Nicholas Kearns, 585-545-9976, njkearns11@gmail.com
For more insights, you might consider a career in liability adjusting or if you're searching for reliable adjusting services, visit Auten Claims Management.
To explore more about Chantal Roberts and her contributions to the industry, visit CMR Consulting.
Promotions:
- Once Upon a Claim: Explore the magical world of claims adjusting through fairy tales. Get your copy now.
- The Art of Adjusting®: Master the art of claims adjusting with practical insights and expert advice. Purchase here.
Hello, I'm Bill Auten of Auten Claims Management.
Speaker 2:I'm Chantel Roberts of CMR Consulting and welcome to the Art of Adjusting podcast.
Speaker 1:Today we're going to talk about life as an insurance adjuster from the perspective of property, auto liability or workers' compensation adjusters. Our goal is to bring interesting topics in the world of claims adjusting to people who are working as an adjuster now and to people who are considering a career as a claims adjuster.
Speaker 2:Hi Bill.
Speaker 1:Hey Chantel, how are you today?
Speaker 2:I'm doing well, thank you. How are you?
Speaker 1:I'm doing pretty good. The sun is shining but it's freezing cold and the wind is blowing and it's miserable. The snow on the ground is driving me crazy. I want to go to Florida or Arizona or something.
Speaker 2:Okay. So, speaking of Florida, our guest today, heather Blevins, just told me off air that she is going to Florida. What is it next week? So you know. And she's in Illinois, so she is up north too. We have gray and cloudy weather today. What about you, heather? We always talk about weather.
Speaker 3:It is the cold gray bucket of suck of Illinois right now. We are deep in the heart of it at the moment.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I want to introduce, like I said, our guest today is Heather Blevins. She's a CPCU, she's an insurance training professional, which is an ITP. She is you have a master's in education, which I think is great. Word collector also fun and she is known as the insurance rebel, which, if you're looking on YouTube, you can see her. She's identified herself as the insurance rebel which, if you're looking on YouTube, you can see her. She's identified herself as the insurance rebel and she wants to inspire you to believe in your power to be a powerful agent of change, while creating an environment where it's safe to disagree and challenge the status quo, which I really think we need. Now. I don't feel like we know how to respectfully challenge one another, so I love that about you, heather, welcome. Welcome to the show.
Speaker 3:Absolutely Just overjoyed to be with you, chantel and Bill, here on this Friday morning, and can't wait to talk about all the things that we're going to talk about today, yes, and, as Bill pointed out, if you're watching on YouTube, you're in outer space, because you are always on the go.
Speaker 2:I mean, always on the go, can't keep you down and, like we said, you're going to be in Florida very, very shortly. Let's start off, though, with the reason why I brought you here. By the way, guys, happy Valentine's Day. This is going to be airing on the 13th of February, right before our Valentine's Day. So happy Valentine's. And I wanted to play a video, a LinkedIn video that Heather had done a couple of weeks ago, where Heather had talked about the four pillars of resilience, and this is part of your Wednesday Words with the Rebel series. So I'm going to play it right now, and then we'll come right back to it.
Speaker 3:Well, it's time again for Wednesday Words with the Rebel, and the word I'm going to be talking about for a while, and I've been really focusing on and doing a lot of research about, is resilience, and especially how the insurance claims industry really builds that superpower skill of resilience as you work with people in some of the toughest circumstances of their lives. You know, the American Psychological Association actually defines like four qualities, four skill sets that you really need to have in order to become a resilient person, and those four things are connection, healthy thinking, wellness and meaning in your life. So this week I'm going to talk a little bit about connection and meaning in your life. So this week I'm going to talk a little bit about connection and I'll tell you, going back to my days working in the claims industry, the connections that I made with people in the insurance industry were so incredibly important to me. They are some of the most important connections that I still have today in my network, in my professional network, in my personal network. It's the people that we make those connections with that really matter to us.
Speaker 3:So my encouragement to all of you out there who are working in some pretty tough circumstances with all the catastrophic events that are unfolding across the United States the wildfires in California, the mass cold event across the United States, which I know is creating a huge claim volume, and, I don't know, snow in Louisiana and Florida, kind of blowing all of our minds with how things are changing and how much they impact all those claims professionals out there trying to help people to recover from tough circumstances. There, trying to help people to recover from tough circumstances Build those connections. Build those same networks that I built when I worked in the insurance claims industry. They are important to you. That sense of connection is one of those bedrock foundation pillars that you need in order to become a resilient person. So that's about all I got to say for this Wednesday Rebel out, how's that, bill?
Speaker 2:Wonderful, okay, okay. So, heather, you were talking about one of the pillars being connection, and it really kind of spoke to me. I thought it would be perfect for today, since tomorrow's Valentine's Day and we as adjusters kind of had to show ourselves love sometimes. So why are connections important?
Speaker 3:The reality is, chantel Bill, claims adjusting is the toughest job in insurance.
Speaker 3:I did it for many years of my insurance career.
Speaker 3:I haven't been in the claims world for a while, but I know that the people at work in that piece of the insurance ecosystem are dealing with things flying at them from every single direction all the time and it's very easy to become isolated and overwhelmed in the job role and I've seen it countless numbers of times.
Speaker 3:Where claims adjusters are, they're just in the zone right, got to keep the head down, got to keep the work going and not realizing that when you isolate yourself and you don't really put yourself in a place to make those connections with other people, to build that network, it's not healthy for you and I experienced that, I would say, ebb and flow of that during my career as a claims adjuster. But I was also in an environment where I was surrounded by other people who were, just the same way, heads down as well as well. And my encouragement for every claims professional today is that you have to continuously work on your ability to be able to put yourself out there and be vulnerable enough to meet other people and build accountability networks for each other to lift each other up as you do that hardest job in insurance.
Speaker 1:I would agree a hundred, 100%, but the job's not that hard. You know, I used to have hair, so that's something to be said about that, I guess. But reaching out to not just to get help from a technical standpoint which is something you should do on a regular basis as well but just to have people to talk things through, to make sure you're not you know, if you're questioning your judgments, have somebody else at the other side that's saying, yeah, you know you're kind of wrong there, or you know you are right Either way can be a huge help to your confidence and get you through a day.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I totally think that having these silos and I think it's kind of increased with the fact that we are working from home a lot of times where we don't have these people that we can turn to. But I remember what you're talking about, Heather, where I was in an office and the bullets were flying overhead, so to speak, and you're just trying to put out fires left and right.
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 3:I think that whenever you're operating in that world as a claims professional and obviously you know every job role in claims can be very, very different.
Speaker 3:There's people who work in office environments.
Speaker 3:There's people who work in those field environments where they're facing customers day in and day out, but the reality is is you're dealing with people who are coming at you not on their very best day of their life right when you talk about the policyholders and the customers that you work with and it's very, very easy to start to absorb some of that trauma that's associated with people who've either lost everything in their life they've suffered some major, catastrophic loss where they were involved in an accident and people died.
Speaker 3:Just like law enforcement professionals, military professionals, doctors and nurses and social workers, claims adjusters don't meet people on their very best day of their life, and so those interactions oftentimes are heated and people get frustrated because, let's face it, folks insurance is really complicated. Ok, you got this, this policy that people think is just there for absolutely everything, that people think is just there for absolutely everything, and you have to explain the nuances of something that's a contract with people that they don't really understand what they're buying when they buy. And on top of that there is just this compounded stress of dealing with repetitive people who are going through the worst day of their life and that concept is vicarious trauma.
Speaker 3:We talk about it in a lot of different industries but we don't talk about it in how it impacts claims professionals. There's not a lot of people out there that have been talking about that and I got on I'd say not got on any wagons, but I got on this train when I started seeing that the impacts of that in myself and in some of the other professionals that I was working with in a particular claims environment. At one time. It was and I'll tell you a quick story about this I went into a bodily injury claims handling environment. At one point.
Speaker 3:I was surrounded by a lot of people that I had worked with for many, many years on different sides of a company and everything, and I, you know, I went to them and I said, look, I said I know we deal with traumatic brain injuries and people, people dying in car accidents pretty regularly, just because the jurisdictions we're working with and and like we got the worst of the worst claims right and like we got the worst of the worst claims Right, and I said how do you manage, like emotionally, how do you manage dealing with the stress of that coming at you every single day and dealing with those types of claims and they go well. You know what those types of claims are, the easiest claims to deal with. And you know my eyes kind of popped open. I said did you really understand the question that I was asking?
Speaker 2:popped open, I said did you really understand the question that I was asking? My eyes just went wide. I know you can't see that on the radio or your earbuds, wherever you're listening, but my eyes just went wide. I mean, that's crazy.
Speaker 3:Yeah, they said it's the easiest claims to deal with. And I said, well, help me understand what you mean by that. And they said, well, most of the time you're just going to pay policy limits and move on. And technically I get it, like, technically they are accurate about that, right. But I also sensed that, because of the volume and because of the stress of the job, that it was almost like there was this numbness and some people that I'd known for years, because the time to give the compassion that they needed to give to that circumstance was too much for them personally.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you can't, you can't, you don't have a well deep enough for all the emotion. You need to do that. So what it becomes is an administrative task to work through the facts and just say, okay, this is what happened, here's the result, here's the financial impact. Uh, put it all together in a story that makes sense so that you can get the thing resolved. And I mean, yeah, it's hard, but there are people that deal with the, the trauma of actually seeing these things right after they happen, like first responders. You know the things that the people in hospitals, you know the things that they have to see and take home with them, are pretty traumatic as well. So I would agree with the person that responded to you and say you know, these are the easier ones to handle because they do become more of an administrative thing. You're not it. And the smaller ones tend to be the biggest pain in the butt because, because they're usually the, they're more vocal about it.
Speaker 1:Um, you know, for a, for a fender, the rule was always in auto claims if it was a fender bender of like a 1500 damages. Those are the worst claims in the world to handle because that person's on the phone every hour looking for answers and looking for results. Uh, versus you know a tbi where you've got somebody that's in the hospital for eight days and and then back into recovery. You know it happened, it happened, it's bad, it's a long recovery, it's a lot of documentation to obtain and review and, like I said, it becomes this administrative thing.
Speaker 1:Where you are you do get emotionally detached Occasionally, not occasionally, but on every severe case you can't help but have some sort of feelings for the folks that are involved and empathy for them, and you certainly need to project that when you're dealing with their families or even their attorney. That's just being a decent human being. But I can kind of agree with what they had said as those being kind of the easier ones and I think it's because there's no direct stress on you in many cases. Well, you're not getting people hammering your phone every day on those claims.
Speaker 2:Well, I know, I hear what you're saying, bill, and I hear what Heather is saying. But you know, the fun thing about Bill and me is that we always well, we don't always we tend to disagree. And I kind of like that, because I hear what Heather is saying and I think it's the cumulative fact that we are always in that kind of environment. Yes, it's the easiest administrative to pay, because you just pay policy limits and move on, and but there is that cumulative, I think, trauma or whatever. And we even had Brandon, who is our OG listener, followed us over.
Speaker 2:You know one of our six listeners, and he came on the podcast to talk about how going to adjuster meetings like, like, I am a member of the Greater Kansas City Claims Association, cpcu I know you're a member of CPCU and you do the, the insights, the magazine, you know, and so you're interacting with people that way too, and how that keeps them grounded and that's kind of like what you are talking about as well. And I know that when you had posted the video, I teasingly posted oh well, you can't say that there's four pillars and then only tell me one of them. You got to tell me what the other three are. Come on now. So what are the other three?
Speaker 3:Yeah, the other three pillars are wellness, healthy thinking and a sense of meaning and purpose, and those three I haven't had.
Speaker 3:You know, I'm going to be addressing all of these in my in my weekly video on LinkedIn, but I can tell you for me personally, the wellness and healthy thinking one like I've been a little bit on the struggle bus with coming across, not saying because I feel like I'm pointing a lot of fingers at myself whenever I start talking about that, because I'm someone who's go, go, go, go, go, I'm the energizer bunny, I run against the wall and then I fall over.
Speaker 3:Okay, and I don't know how many other claims professionals are like that, but I think the nature of the job, whenever you are a claims professional, pushes you into that mindset of just go, go, go, go, go, go, go, and then you're going to jump and then you're going to fall over and then there's some adoption of unhealthy habits. That happens a lot of times, especially for claims professionals who are traveling around the countryside. You're living in hotels, you're eating fast food or you're eating junk all the time because you're on the road and you're trying to get to the next next thing that you have to do. You know, for me I'm like I need to reground myself in this idea of I have to take, you have to take care of yourself, and for claims professionals, you have to take care of yourself because you are taking care of other people in some of their worst circumstances of their life and you can't pour from the empty cup.
Speaker 2:Right, it's kind of like what I always say. You know, like the airlines, they say put your mask on first before you do your kids. And I think what we were just talking about, even with Bill and me doing our normal disagreement that we normally do, which actually is what makes, I think, the podcast interesting, and sometimes we take contrary positions just to take contrary positions, you know. But I think that goes back to no, we don't. Yes, we do, you know. I think that that is what we're talking about with the wellness and and that what you're talking about with the mental health and and that sort of thing, because I think it all really blends in together, doesn't it?
Speaker 2:I remember you were talking about your kind of war story.
Speaker 2:I had a war story and and I sit there and I think to myself Chantel, this is not a big deal, but I remember when Katrina hit and we were getting I don't know a hundred claims a day or something like that, and not individually, of course, but the phone would never stop ringing, from eight to five, you know, and so it was a it was a high stress situation, and you're talking to all of those insureds who have lost everything.
Speaker 2:You know, the, the levees have broken, all of this sort of thing, and for a week I had dreams about flooding and drowning and I sit there and go. How can I, as the adjuster up in Arkansas, hundreds of miles away from Louisiana, say that I'm in the same position as these people in New Orleans who have lost everything I'm? Who am I to say that I'm as bad off as they are? But it's like what you said I can't pour from that empty cup. So you know, I'm not ashamed to say that I had to go seek a little bit of therapy and and talk that through to where I was able to help them out, because I had to help me first.
Speaker 3:Absolutely. I think we need to normalize the idea that it's okay to say you're not okay, absolutely.
Speaker 1:And just so everybody knows this isn't a bad job. You should come into the claims industry. It's a lot of fun otherwise.
Speaker 2:You know me. You know me. I am trying to get more people. I tell people every day this is the best job in insurance. This is by far. Being an adjuster is the best, absolutely. Now we're showing you the dirty underbelly of a job that your, your I guess your job interview will never tell you about, which is fine. Every job has that. Like you said, bill, the medics, the first responders they have a lot of trauma, probably more trauma than we do.
Speaker 2:You know, but let's talk about, let's be honest with one another, let's be transparent, and I think that's what Heather is doing and I absolutely love that idea. And I'm wondering if that is where you got the idea of being like an insurance rebel, because it is kind of a rebel-like idea of showing not necessarily the underbelly and the badness of being an insurance adjuster, but it's different.
Speaker 3:No, it's just about insurance and not to give a commentary about insurance. Insurance has a transparency issue. Okay, Like that's public perception obviously a lot, and fed by a lot of different factors, but I think you have to talk about the realities of what the job role is and then also balance, counterbalance that out with. Okay, here's how you can be a resilient claims professional. Here's the things that you need to do. And so, yes, educating people and helping them to understand so that they can recognize, have awareness okay, recognize when these types of emotions, feelings, behaviors and actions are coming into their own life, they can reset their own attitude towards that and connect with the people that they need to connect with.
Speaker 3:In order to do that, Take that action to. Let's write your life, just like you did, Chantel, when you had to reach out and say, hey, this doesn't feel right. You know and I think it's more of like a calling to serve a community of people that I see a lot of times live in the dregs of what the insurance ecosystem is right, You're delivering this product that someone sold to someone. The magic I always called it the magic of insurance was the claims profession. There's a calling to serve the people that you have to deliver that to, but also making sure that you're ready, you're able, you're at the moment to be able to do that in a way that's compassionate and empathetic and helping them to understand you're a human being in this process who's going to guide another human being through that process.
Speaker 1:Yes, and I would encourage you to always look for the things about the job that you do love, because it's probably different for some people than others. But whatever it is whether you like helping people, for me it's just curiosity. I like to go see how things happen, what happened and what the results are. Whatever it is for you, make sure you identify that and even if you post it on your wall just to remind you of why you're doing this job, because a lot of people who find that this is not a career for them, they just can't see anything good about the job and I feel bad for them because it is an interesting career and I've been doing it for a very long time and I would recommend it. But if you can't see why you're doing it to begin with, then all this other stuff is going to probably push you out of the job pretty quick.
Speaker 2:I totally agree. I tell my students when I'm talking to them in class that that again, being an adjuster is the best job and in the upcoming generations they really want to help people. And I say, do you know who helps people? That's the claims adjusters. And it's like what Heather says on your worst day. We're meeting people on their worst day. Their house is burned down, they've been in an auto accident Goodness forbid, someone died in the house, fire or the auto accident or what have you. But worst day and we are coming in as the promise keepers of that policy, as someone who can help them. And that's what I like, as well as kind of solving the mystery of how it happens and how it fits into the policy. I do think of it as being kind of like a mystery and I like that. That's what I find interesting. So helping people and solving the mystery, so to speak.
Speaker 3:And what Bill was talking about there is that fourth pillar of resilience. You know, find the thing right, find the thing that gets you jazzed about being a claims professional. And for me, I can tell you it was all about those connections that I made with other people, not just that community of people that I was surrounded with, that we were working in those hard circumstances together, but also just that sense of people that I was surrounded with, that we were working in those hard circumstances together, but also just that sense of connection of I met another human in a place in their life and I was able to guide them through something that was really complicated and solve the puzzle and solve the challenge and help them to solve the challenge but to also make it where they know why I'm there and not just to click off on some administrative tasks that are associated with the claim. Do I still have to do that? Yes, that's the part of the job that a lot of people don't like.
Speaker 3:That's the sense of disconnect as well, and I think there's a motto out there about keeping insurance human.
Speaker 3:I mean, we all talk about all the tech and everything that's coming into the industry right now and how it's going to evolve.
Speaker 3:And like you won't even talk to a human being and insurance anymore, I'm like no folks, really we're dealing with folks in like human circumstances. You have to have a human connection with other people, whatever that means and whatever circumstance that that is. And also just the idea of people listening to people and hearing where they are and then helping them to understand that yeah, right now it's not okay, but I can tell you it's going to be okay. And even in those circumstances where I had to say I'm sorry, there's really not a lot that I can do, I could still deliver that message with compassion and understanding and empathy and help them to understand the why of what I was doing. And I think those were the things. That was my sense of meaning, that was my sense of purpose in working in the claims profession. And I can't, you can't you said it really great, bill like find the thing that gets you jazzed, that gets you excited about being a claims professional. That's your sense of meaning, that's your sense of purpose.
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 2:I love that and what you were talking about, heather, with the knowing and being able to explain the why as to why something may or may not be covered. I was talking on LinkedIn. I think I commented on one of Bill Wilson, the very knowledgeable Bill Wilson's post post, and a guy had said that he, for better or for worse, had or chooses insurance based off of the way that they portray their claims people in the commercial. And I said, yeah, but even then, because Bill was complaining that we really need to educate people instead of hire funny mascots or what have you, and I totally agree with him about that. And I said but the problem is, even with this idea of showing the claims people, that is still wrong, because I and I and I linked a particular insurer that I'm not going to name here and it shows this commercial of where the claims adjusters are saying, oh, your claim is automatically paid, you know, we're sending the check now, blah, blah, blah. And I said, even that tends to send the wrong message, that again to the insured, all of your claims are going to be covered, and that is not necessarily true. And I had written that in the response. And the guy said, but isn't that what cheap insurance is? And I said no, not necessarily. True, and I had written that in the response.
Speaker 2:And the guy said but isn't that what cheap insurance is? And I said no, not necessarily. You know, and it's all about that education and there are ways for us as an industry and you said it, heather, we were terrible at educating people is letting them know politely and educating them so that they get the right coverage. I actually had a friend who said I have never heard you say you know where people could go and what they can do with themselves once they were there. So, politely, you know where they thank you for saying that and I'm like thank you, but that's what you have to do when you're educating the insured. It's like this isn't covered. This is the reason why and hey, why don't we talk to your agent about that, to get it covered or whatever, if that's what you need?
Speaker 3:Definitely You're often the bearer of not great news in claim situations, right A coverage limit or a piece of the policy that says that something's excluded and just helping again, by and large, we know we're not very good at telling the story of insurance, you know, to the consumer public. There's a lot of people out there that are in the LinkedIn community and insurance influencers and people like that who are trying really hard to change that perception of insurance and just being raw and real about what it means to consumers. And a lot of times I don't think we talk enough about like we're selling you something that we hope you never, ever have to use. But if you do, we've got people here who are going to make sure that you get through that process.
Speaker 1:And it has to be human beings. You can't you. I know AI is coming in and everything, but you know you, you can't have a system whereby people call in with problems and you've got. You know, press one if you're sad, press two if you're frustrated. That's not going to work. Even if it is another AI generated voice that really sounds like it's almost a human being, people aren't going to buy it. It's going to come across as probably as offensive to a lot of people and it's not the way to go. Industry, by the way, you should. You should put some bodies in in place that can actually answer questions with some intelligence for people and empathy.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, and we're also talking, since we're talking, humans is that, heather? I like your videos because they also have a terrific sense of humor, and I wonder if you are you're using the videos because there's another influencer out there that you had mentioned on LinkedIn and she uses a lot of TikTok videos that she posts on LinkedIn. I love her, I want to have her on the podcast, and I think she's trying to educate people but also appeal to a younger audience, and I wonder if that's what you're trying to do with the videos.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think for me, this was this was partially a personal challenge of I need to get out there and use the knowledge that I've had over the years and be able to to open up people's eyes to something that I'm very passionate about and that's taking had over the years, and be able to open up people's eyes to something that I'm very passionate about and that's taking care of the insurance claims community. But also, I think, as an industry and as industry professionals and I don't even sit in the industry anymore, I'm kind of adjacent to the industry in my new job role but I feel like all of us really have this duty to help people to under to like change their perception about what insurance is about. And, especially with the negative news media cycle that has been going on of late, there's so much to push back against. But I think you have to be real, you have to be raw, you have to call the industry to the standard when people mess up and you have to say, yeah, this was wrong, but it needs to get better. And here's how I think it needs to get better as well.
Speaker 3:And Bill, 100%, that requires human beings to be involved in the conversation. That requires people to put themselves out there and talk about things that aren't the easiest things to talk about, like claims professionals and the stress levels and the burnout and the things that happen to them. And then the other piece of me is like I want to use these videos to help the claims industry to say we're going to do something about this as a whole, as a collective, because the reality is insurance is facing mass retirements by 2028. What is like 450,000. They keep like throwing the numbers up there of how many people are going to be leaving the industry. We've not done a good job in replacing the people count that is needed and there are some with the mindset okay, we can use AI to do this or that or the other. I am not anti, by the way. This is not a bashing AI, bashing technology discussion at all. I 100 percent believe that AI can be assistive in doing the rote and administrative work that will free up claims professionals and underwriters and all those other people to to be able to be the humans they need to be in the industry to make the complex decisions, to be able to focus on taking care of people in those circumstances.
Speaker 3:But 100%, we're in a crisis level right now in the industry and the reality is and I do a lot of talking about this there are statistics out there. It's very hard to grab HR statistics for just the claims profession, but there are statistics out there. It's very hard to grab HR statistics for just the claims profession, but there are statistics out there that lead us to understand that one in four claims professionals are going to leave the industry in the next year. One out of four 25%. What does that say? Do we have a ready 25% number of people to come in and help and take care of those circumstances right now? No, no, no, yeah. And then one of the number one reasons they're leaving stress and burnout.
Speaker 2:Yes, Thank you, thank you, that is. That is one of the things that I do talk about with my students. Just to go off script, because we all know, uh, because we've had guests before and and I've spilled the beans or spilled the tea, as the kids nowadays are saying is that I give her the questions, bill, and I give her the questions beforehand, so there's no gotchas or anything like that. But to go off script for just a second, you are absolutely correct. I talk to my students all the time and about, you know, being an adjuster and about the brain drain and Nancy German if you know Nancy German, she talks about this quite a bit.
Speaker 2:It is alarming and I have looked up the Bureau of Labor Statistics and they are massively uninformed or ill informed about what an adjuster does, because while they say that an agent or broker, producer, underwriter, actuary all of them need a college degree, they say that an adjuster does not. Okay, technically maybe that's true, but do you know everything that we have to know? I mean, if we're going to be in property, we have to know how a house is built. We have to know physics, because we have to know how a house falls down, or we have to know chemistry, how a fire starts, and you can't have three origins of a fire, that's going to be arson. Or if you get into auto, how does whiplash I mean? That's physics again, you know. And how do you build a car? You're going to have to know that. And it goes back to what Barton Key says in one of my favorite insurance movies Double Indemnity. You know, you have to be a father, confessor, a judge and jury, you need to be a doctor to cut open these claim files and know their dirty little secrets and all of that.
Speaker 2:It's a great scene. But yeah, to sit there and say that all these people are going to leave and in fact let's also I'm going to get on my high horse again say that the industry does a very bad job. While we have a couple of universities that have risk management and insurance degrees, nine times out of 10, there is only a chapter on claims, not even a semester on how to take claims. I think that should be mandatory, even for underwriters, even for agents. How do we adjust claims? Because Bill and I have talked about it before. My book, my risk management book, says there are four steps in the claims process. One of them is the first notice of claim and the fourth one is settlement or payment. Excuse me, they actually use the word payment of claims and I'm like, okay, I'm going to mute myself now and take a walk around the block and calm down.
Speaker 1:Well, one thing to think about is that when that 25% of professionals walk out of the business, what are the insurance carriers, what's the industry going to do to reset? Like what if, tomorrow, they just suddenly lost a quarter of their workforce? Will they have to rethink, to kind of reinvent the wheel and come up with some new process to make sure that their claims are being handled the way they need to be? Or are they going to buck up here and start training people the way they need to be trained and treating people the way they need to be treated in the industry?
Speaker 3:You asked a really hard question. It's a rhetorical question and it's one of those that hits me in my heart, because I also think about the 75% of the people who are left behind when those numbers start going out the door.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 3:Because what happens to their claim file loads, what happens to their stress levels, what happens to their ability to be resilient in the industry? It just it piles up right, because the claims don't go away, they don't magically disappear. Whenever somebody who has a hundred cases walks out the door, what happens? Magic wheel, it gets spun out in between everybody else. Right, it does. And then, and it's difficult, and it's difficult and those times are really hard and I know the industry has gone through these fluxes where you know we're going to base our staffing upon historical catastrophe activity and then we're going to make decisions where we're going to like slow down or not hire to replace, because we think we can do it, but yet there's not the technology to take away the, the, the claim load. That's there and and I think that's also one of those issues that kind of feeds the burnout. And yes, this is. This is kind of those hard conversation things that I think have to be had at the executive level of insurance so that you can open up the reality of like there is. There's significant risk for the industry whenever you're not taking care of the claims professionals on the front lines and making sure that they they know how to be resilient. People teach them about that, helping them through, coping through these types of things and then also making sure that you have plans whenever folks are rolling out the door to other industries. And here I am 20 years later, I'm, you know, I'm still doing it.
Speaker 3:What perception are we putting out to people who want to come to the industry when we say we kind of tripped and fell into a hole for the job that we have? Right, right, okay, we need to say insurance found me. And here's all the fantastic things that have happened in my life the network, the connections, the knowledge that I now have that I never knew, that I was going to know about, you know. And then just the relationship base of the insurance industry and how connected it is. That's a big sell. I've been in that professor role, chantel as well. I've taught risk management and insurance programs. I certainly deviated from the text that was there and talked more about like here's the end result of what you all are learning about in this risk management process and everything, and why it's so crucial. The saddest thing for me is that when you talk to a lot of students who are even in those types of programs, they're like, well, I'll take a job in claims so I can get into something else in insurance.
Speaker 2:Okay. But I am okay with that because I think that we as an industry also teach our youngsters incorrectly. Because you said it, claims is the front facing, where we keep the promise. We're dealing with the insured. That's the promise. The policy is the promise.
Speaker 2:And so I think we should actually be teaching claims and then work backwards like, oh, you've had a claim, it's been denied, and so what did you want to have covered? Oh, you wanted this covered. Well then you need to have, I don't know, boat insurance or general liability or I don't know whatever. And for us to teach it from the underwriting to the agent to the claims is, I think, backwards. And so my students they actually hate me because we are in our commercial division right now where we're studying nothing but commercial insurance and every single chapter we have is this claim covered?
Speaker 2:And it starts off with of course, everybody knows I use the Incredibles as the examples. So this year or this semester, we're studying Syndrome, the evil villain, and I'm like, okay, so syndrome has an evil layer, the volcano goes off, let's talk about his. You know his contents, is it going to be covered? We need to learn how to read the policy and work backwards, and it's just amazing that some of the students go you know what? We just passed our broker exam and we didn't know about that vacancy, that 31% vacancy clause, and I'm like, see, now you need to know, because syndrome is going to get thrown in jail every once in a while, so the island is going to be vacant or unoccupied, quote, unquote. So you, as the broker, need to be talking to Syndrome, about blah, blah, blah, but you didn't know about it. The claims, people do you know, and so, yeah, I totally hear what you're saying. I love this. I love what you're saying.
Speaker 1:I'd like to swing back a little bit to AI again and a comment that you made, heather, about AI making the job easier or taking away some of the rote kind of things that we have to do in this business to allow us to be better at our jobs. And I think what the industry has to watch out for is decision makers seeing AI as a way to replace people rather than to make their their job better and make their output better. Um, I I don't want to see and I unfortunately do see a lot of products that seem to be designed to replace what the adjusters are doing and, um, I don't think that's a good, a good idea at all. I think that's a good idea at all. I think that's a huge. I think it's a misconception.
Speaker 1:First of all, the people that are in claims in the claims industry that are developing AI things they get it. It's the people outside the industry that are making recommendations about automated phone systems and whatever. They're missing the mark. And I think that in the upper echelons of insurance carriers, you're going to probably have people in those leadership positions that maybe don't have a background in claims and that could be dangerous because they're going to see this shiny new object and they're going to see some potential cost savings and they could see it as the answer to that 25% drop in personnel. It's not. I mean, in a way it might be helpful, but at the end of the day you can't replace people with AI.
Speaker 3:Yeah, there's quite a few insurance influencers that are standing up here cheering in the back right now, bill, for what you say the reality is is that most technological changes that come in insurance don't start with start from the people. Ok, that's a change management thing. Here's my change management hat coming on Right. Ok, they start with tech because it's shiny and new and they think about cost savings and all these wonderful things that this tech is going to be able to do, and then we don't think about the people that are at the center of that, and that's why I don't know how many percentage of I used to know that number but the percentage of of change efforts associated with technology actually fail.
Speaker 3:Um, there's also another influencer out there that talks about working from the customer backwards, and while insurance is very customer focused, very like we're trying to figure out like the new way we need to get a product in front of people and all those types of things we don't think about like the customer as the at the center of that, whenever you're trying to innovate and trying to and trying to figure out, how do you integrate technology and everything. So I think there has to be a huge mindset shift associated with that and realize that AI is a tool just like every other tool that's out there in the claims world, in the underwriting world, in the actuarial world. It's a tool. It's been around a lot longer than a lot of us want to talk about, but there are capabilities that can get unlocked with AI that will allow us to focus more on the humans that are working in insurance and really help them at the center of that conversation to be the best professionals that they can be.
Speaker 3:But you've got to think about it from the human side of it and that human data, human tech integration as well and I think that's a huge mindset shift for an industry that is still pretty heavily legacy-based right and trying to figure that out and there's a lot of really, really smart people that I know that are working on that kind of stuff. That's not my wheelhouse. Um, I'm happy to give my opinion and my philosophy any day about it, but, um, I really hope some of them are successful because that to me, this, this part of the insurance industry, is so key to our ability to be able to continue to support and be the safety net the financial safety net that insurance is to society today.
Speaker 1:Well put, well said.
Speaker 2:Absolutely yeah, and I think we need to engage in a different way than what our predecessors have been doing, and I know that this is one of the reasons for the podcast that Bill and I do.
Speaker 2:We started off during the pandemic with Clubhouse, but you know, so many people today don't have time for formal study and you kind of were talking about that, heather, where people are feeling like in their silos and management doesn't understand and they're getting burned out and that thing, and I see this so often where people don't want to do that formal study, like the CPCU or whatever, and management not having come from a claims background or whatever, they don't push it anymore, maybe because they're trying to cut costs or loss adjustment expenses or whatever. But you're a big proponent of it. You still are very big in the institutes by volunteering in your local chapter and being the publications chair, like I mentioned previously. So what are some of your, you know, go-tos? To get that designation or to get that, I guess, continuing education if your license doesn't require it, or whatever to keep that education going when life gets busy.
Speaker 3:Tune in to podcasts is one of the things that I think people can do, because that's kind of a lot of times for people. That can be some passive listening that you can okay. Well, I want to rewind and I want to listen to that piece of that again. The other piece is join professional organizations and be a part of them. They truly shape you in ways that you never even know and, again, to me, like they're part of my resilience package. As a person, I get a lot of purpose and meaning and connection and keep my attitude in a good place because I'm getting to serve, I'm getting to give back, I'm getting to mentor, I'm getting to volunteer, I'm getting to share those things that I'm passionate about with a community of people who are not just like-minded like you and Chantel, you and Bill, like you, kind of play off of each other all the time and you have different opinions and different attitudes about things. But it's a safe and healthy place to do all of that. And, yes, does it require time? It does, but I tell you, we all wake up at the same 24 hours every single day. What are you doing with it to build resilience in yourself and the other people around you. What do you? What do you? Resilience in yourself and the other people around you what do you? What do you? And to me, like one of the best ways to do that is giving back to the industry in the ways that we can. When we've been around for a hot minute here, right, and yes, I want to do more than predecessors before me because I want them to be.
Speaker 3:I want the next generation to see how cool and attractive and interesting and challenging and complex it is to be a claims professional, but also just an industry professional in general.
Speaker 3:And while you may not be somebody that wants to pursue those tough tests and the tough designations and gut it out for those types of things, that's okay. But that doesn't mean you can't be engaged with the community of people. Trust me, they'll probably get you on the wagon at some point and they'll coach you through it and they'll teach you and they'll do some things to be able to do that. But it is good for you as a human to have those connections, those professional connections that go beyond even professional connections now, connections that go beyond even professional connections now. Like some of my best friends right now are people that I have made relationships and connections and built this community of people from my professional organizations that I'm involved in right now. They make me a better human because I continuously learn from them, and I know that's hard. If you're sitting as a claims professional and you're thinking like my gosh, how do I have the time to do that? You know, 24 hours every day, same 24 hours. We all wake up with them.
Speaker 2:I agree, because I feel Bill is a good friend now and I feel that when he and I are sitting here talking and bantering back and forth, it is rejuvenating. And when I go to the Greater Kansas City Claims Association, even if it's a social hour or if it's an educational event, it feels rejuvenating to me, even because I think we're all like-minded and so we all feel the same pressures or whatever. And, by the way, if you're an agent listening to this, which is welcome, there are agent ones, there are underwriting ones, there are accounting or actuarial groups, all of this kind of stuff, and so they last maybe an hour, hour and a half, once a month, you know, and that's not much. So I find that it rejuvenates me, quite frankly.
Speaker 3:Plug in. Yes, that's. That's a piece of resilience as well as like it's easy to become really disconnected in the world we live in today. Right, I mean, the three of us are sitting in three different locations talking like Brady Bunch on the screen right now, and it is to me, and I and I shared this, you know, subsequent connection, linkedin, covid changed me a lot. It kind of changed I used to be, I used to be super extroverted, I was like, oh, they're on the Myers-Briggs and all of that, and then maybe it's just because I'm getting older as well. But COVID kind of changed me and I was like I started to isolate myself because it was just easy to do that and I had to realize that I was kind of losing connection with people and it was. It was hurting, you know, it was hurting me personally.
Speaker 3:I think COVID changed the world in that way. I know that doesn't make me unique just to talk about that, but that sense of intentional connection with other people shapes us into better people for tomorrow. And when you talk about people that are in that claims profession, you always need to be a better person than you were the day before in that job, because there's something new to learn. There's some new challenge that's in front of you. There's some difficult circumstance that you might have to deal with day in and day out, and so continuously striving to make that connection with other people so that you can be that better person the next day, that's what I encourage every claims professional to think about. Carve out the time that's necessary for that, because it'll be better for you as a person, but also better for everybody else whose lives you can pour into as well, because you have something to help someone with, especially in the job that you do.
Speaker 1:And it helps your career. You're going to wind up being better at your job and it's going to launch your career to new heights also.
Speaker 2:Yeah, way to way to make it selfish Bill Good job.
Speaker 1:I was really, I was really worried that this was this episode was going to be so touchy, feely I wouldn't know what to say. But um, but uh, hey, I got through it. Yeah, no, get in touch. I have feelings too. I have, I, I have, I have. I can be sad, I can be happy. That's good to have feelings.
Speaker 2:And we love you for it, bill, we do. Thank you, thank you and you're going to make my ears. So we, we are almost out of time. Heather, I think we mentioned you're going to be in Florida soon speaking. Do you want to plug anything else that you're doing? Plug the insurance rebel. Follow you on to plug anything else that you're doing.
Speaker 3:Plug the insurance rebel follow you on LinkedIn, what else? Any kind of social media? Absolutely, I'm going to be in Florida actually like next week, like probably before the podcast even gets released here right now, but I'm speaking on this particular topic like building resilience and claims professionals, and I'll be speaking on that topic regularly over this year at various conference environments that are already booked out there. In addition to that, I'm also encouraging everyone because I'm part of that Society of Insurance Trainers and Educators volunteer run organization board. We're planning a conference in Nashville this year, and it's our first conference since 2019. We have got stacked and racked with an amazing docket of speakers that are going to be out there for everybody to be able to engage with. And even if you're not an insurance learning professional, trust me, there's something for you in this conference environment and folks. It's Nashville. Come on. It's amazing. It's like the South Vegas. So come on out.
Speaker 3:That's April 2nd and April 1st. We're doing a kind of a hybrid train the trainer program as well. If you haven't been through train the trainer, it's a fantastic program that can teach you how to be a better presenter in all kinds of environments too. So shout out to my, to my friends also shout out to the national association of subrogation professionals, who we're partnering with um for, like our our kickoff conference to their conference. That's going to be right after that as well. But thank you all for having me on. I could talk all day about this topic. It's not too touchy feely, bill. We got into some good stuff too.
Speaker 2:Oh, look at you. Bill launched out into outer space. Well, now, maybe I should. I don't know. I kind of feel like I'm, you know.
Speaker 1:Join us in outer space, Chantel.
Speaker 2:But I don't really want to oh, you want to go to I I want to go to florida with uh where heather is going to be, because it's cold and and yeah, it's cold, wet and rainy over here in in kansas. So yeah, yeah, so anyway well well, thank you so much, heather.
Speaker 2:We do appreciate it, and thanks, heather, great talk I think we're going to have another guest, actually in two weeks. I think it's going to be Fred Fisher who is? So I don't know that for sure, so don't quote me on it guys, but yeah, I think it's going to be Fred Fisher. So, anyway, super excited about that, so stick around.
Speaker 1:Don't quote you. You know this is recorded, don't you?
Speaker 2:Oh, man Darn, I can edit it out. Ooh, sure, okay, bye.
Speaker 1:Bye. Thanks for joining us on the Art of Adjusting podcast, where we talk about life as an insurance adjuster. Hit that subscribe button real quick and tell all of your adjuster friends to check this out as well. For independent adjusting services, go to wwwautinclaims, and for anyone interested in working as an independent liability adjuster, go to the contact us tab to join our roster.
Speaker 2:So this wraps up another Art of Adjusting podcast. If you enjoyed this podcast or this episode, please give us five stars and a review. It does help the algorithm pick us up. In the meantime, you can contact me at theartofadjustingcom for consulting and training purposes.
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